One more thing the trainer said
White Monkey
things more instead of just taking her to places where she can run and play
with other dogs, working more on reinforcing basic obedience, making sure
she sees the baby as a positive influence ("Look, Saskia, Walter's awake!
Now we can go for a walk!"), etc. She seems calmer and her self-confidence
seems a bit better again.
Meanwhile, the trainer told me to stop letting her on furniture, to not make
a big deal out of the baby handling her things, and to let her know how
things are going in about a month. She also said something I wanted to run
by you folks.
Saskia yawns when we rub her cheeks. She yawns when she's been being a butt
head (like not wanting to come in after a potty trip) and we tell her firmly
to do it (she yawns and comes in), she yawns when we call her over, and
after the growl incident at the baby she yawned at him and looked away. Now,
I thought this was a submission gesture, meant to indicate non-aggression.
The trainer, however, said it means stress, that Saskia is always under high
stress when she does it. I asked, "What about if Saskia ambles over, leans
against my legs, wags, and solicits petting of her side, and when I do pet
her side like she likes, she yawns?" Trainer: "Stress. She doesn't really
like it. She's stressed out."
Now, I'm not so sure I buy this. What do you folks feel about this one? For
the record, if I wasn't keeping an open mind about it I would not be posting
to try to explore it.
--Katrina
Spot
stress. Lady does this quite often when I take her out to play and I tell
her it's time to come in. She will deliberatley run out into the yard lay
down and put her head on her teddy bear and yawn then look away at me. To
me it's like an kid saying "awwww mom I don't want to come in yet" Usally I
just tell her come on and raise my voice just a bit and she then comes in.
Everything else sounds like you are on the right track. Although I don't
get why it's not OK to allow her on the furniture. This can be very
confusing for a dog who has been allowed on the furniture in the past.
Unless you are having a growling issue when you tell her to move or get down
I don't see the reason for it.
Celeste
"White Monkey" <k.m.c...@chello.nl> wrote in message
news:4348b7ef$0$11062$e4fe...@news.xs4all.nl...
Melinda Shore
>Well I don't don't buy the whole yawning thing as being a sign she is under
>stress.
Sometimes dogs yawn because they're stressed, sometimes they
yawn for other reasons. I don't see how it's possible to
know which is which unless you're savvy enough to tell the
difference but especially not unless you've observed the dog.
>Although I don't
>get why it's not OK to allow her on the furniture.
I've found that disallowing dogs on the furniture even when
they've been allowed up in the past can be part of sending a
very clear message about how much latitude the dog does or
does not have, as long as the new rule is applied
consistently. I have one dog who could be counted on to
start a fight with one of the other dogs within a day after
jumping up on my bed. Denying him bed privileges was one
piece of putting a stop to his fighting.
>Unless you are having a growling issue when you tell her to move or get down
>I don't see the reason for it.
The reason is to teach the dog that she doesn't have the
prerogatives she seems to think she has.
--
Melinda Shore - Software longa, hardware brevis - sh...@panix.com
The total national debt is now $7,932,709,661,723.50.
White Monkey
> under stress. Lady does this quite often when I take her out to play and
> I tell her it's time to come in. She will deliberatley run out into the
> yard lay down and put her head on her teddy bear and yawn then look away
> at me. To me it's like an kid saying "awwww mom I don't want to come in
> yet" Usally I just tell her come on and raise my voice just a bit and she
> then comes in.
>
> Everything else sounds like you are on the right track. Although I don't
> get why it's not OK to allow her on the furniture. This can be very
> confusing for a dog who has been allowed on the furniture in the past.
> Unless you are having a growling issue when you tell her to move or get
> down I don't see the reason for it.
>
> Celeste
The trainer stated that "dogs allowed on furniture feel equal to or dominant
over their owners" and that they become confused. She says that allowing her
on the furniture is the "most damaging" thing we have done in bringing her
up, and directly related with the two incidents involving the baby. We don't
really buy it as such, but are following the advice because it can't hurt.
We're not shocking her with it, though. The couch she was allowed on has
been thrown away because it was in bad shape and wasn't coming with us to
the new address in 8 days anyway, so there's only the Forbidden Sofa left.
The bedroom is too small for a dog bed, so we're waiting until we move to
add one to the room, and will tentatively allow her to come onto the bed to
get some love before having to sleep on her bed. The trainer seemed to feel
that allowing her in the bedroom at all is dire--she said that the dog in
such a case "feels like it can sleep in the alpha den" and thus feels
"superior" to anyone who does not "sleep in the alpha den"--but we have
never seen any dog have problems with just being allowed into the bedroom,
so we are cautiously not following that piece of advice. Besides, she is
shut out between hen the baby goes to bed and when my husband goes to bed (I
go to bed somewhere in the middle), and then more than half the time she
decides not to follow him in anyway.
I've been referred to a trainer in the US who apparently has a great deal of
experience in this particular area (babies and dogs, not dogs and
furniture), and will be contacting her tomorrow to see if she does phone and
e-mail consultation, since our trainer basically doesn't want to hear from
us for a month, and then we're supposed to "let her know how it's going".
When we tell Saskia to leave the furniture, it goes like this (using the bed
at +/-5:00 a.m. as an example; this is when we shut the bedroom door to keep
the cat from deciding everyone should be Up Now): I touch her shoulder while
she is asleep. I whisper, "OK, Saskers, time for you to go out now". She
gets up immediately, gets off the bed, stands there looking really, really
sleepy, stretches, and walks out to the living room where she used to get
onto the sofa but now lies down on her blankets until I and the baby get up
anywhere between 6 and 8:30.
--Katrina
Janet B
<k.m.c...@chello.nl>, clicked their heels and said:
> She says that allowing her
>on the furniture is the "most damaging" thing we have done in bringing her
>up, and directly related with the two incidents involving the baby. We don't
>really buy it as such, but are following the advice because it can't hurt.
Why don't you buy it? You've given her a special space the baby can't
hoist himself to, literally elevated her status over him, and she
feels she DESERVES it, rather than has had to earn it.
Don't get me wrong, my dogs are allowed on some furniture. You can
bet that even the slightest argumentative nature towards any other
living being, would end that so fast they wouldn't know how their feet
hit the floor.
>I've been referred to a trainer in the US who apparently has a great deal of
>experience in this particular area (babies and dogs, not dogs and
>furniture), and will be contacting her tomorrow to see if she does phone and
>e-mail consultation, since our trainer basically doesn't want to hear from
>us for a month, and then we're supposed to "let her know how it's going".>>
No trainer is as good as one who can SEE what is going on. A lot of
people HERE have a ton of baby/dog experience as well. It's
undoubtely one of the more common problems I get called for. It's
almost always the adults' doing...............
--
Janet B
www.bestfriendsdogobedience.com
http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/bestfriendsobedience/album
Ronna
Janet B wrote:
> On Sun, 9 Oct 2005 14:33:56 +0200, "White Monkey"
> <k.m.c...@chello.nl>, clicked their heels and said:
>
> > She says that allowing her
> >on the furniture is the "most damaging" thing we have done in bringing her
> >up, and directly related with the two incidents involving the baby. We don't
> >really buy it as such, but are following the advice because it can't hurt.
>
If you have a dog who doesn't have resource guarding tendencies, then
no, letting them up on the furniture does not turn them into some type
of "dominant" dog. Letting a dog up on furniture from puppyhood, IMO,
isn't damaging within itself, the problem comes IF the dog starts
resource guarding his space.
Your dog does have resource guarding issues. So she shouldn't be
allowed up on the furniture.
ceb
> The trainer stated that "dogs allowed on furniture feel equal to or
> dominant over their owners" and that they become confused. She says
> that allowing her on the furniture is the "most damaging" thing we
> have done in bringing her up, and directly related with the two
> incidents involving the baby. We don't
>
I agree with Melinda that denying furniture privileges is just one part
of showing the dogs that they're not in charge. It's the whole "humans
control the resources" thing.
Zoe can be a pushy little character and makes occasional attempts to take
over the household. She's been fine for quite a while now, but I really
had to make a lot of the rules clear for her. I just do a modified
"nothing in life is free" program -- she has to do something for me
before I give her things, like sitting or shaking my hand before getting
a treat or some pets. When things are going well I ease up on this
somewhat. When things are going badly I add stuff, like throwing her off
the furniture unless she is invited. But mostly I maintain a pretty
consistent structure in which it is clear that I am the boss.
This did not come naturally to me, as people here can attest. But I will
tell you something that may alleviate some of your concerns about trying
it: Zoe became much happier when I took firm control of things. And so
did I.
Wrt the yawning question, I've always heard that yawning is calming for
dogs -- so they might do it to calm themselves down when they are
stressed (I've seen both of my dogs do this) but they might also do it
when they're relaxed and are kind of reveling in that relaxation, kind of
like how a human might let out a big sigh when soaking in a hot tub.
Also I think they might do it when they're tired!
--
Catherine
& Zoe the cockerchow
& Queenie the black gold retriever
& Rosalie the calico
Kathleen
<snip>
>
> Wrt the yawning question, I've always heard that yawning is calming for
> dogs -- so they might do it to calm themselves down when they are
> stressed (I've seen both of my dogs do this) but they might also do it
> when they're relaxed and are kind of reveling in that relaxation, kind of
> like how a human might let out a big sigh when soaking in a hot tub.
>
> Also I think they might do it when they're tired!
Primates threat-yawn, but I've never seen anything similar in any of my
dogs.
Pretty much the only time I see them yawn is while lounging on their big
fluffy beds in the living room. If they happen to notice you watching,
it's usually followed by a backward flick of the ears and a couple of
tail thumps - the canine equivalent of a sheepish grin - followed by
flopping down flat and sighing happily.
Kathleen
Sionnach
"White Monkey" wrote:
> The trainer stated that "dogs allowed on furniture feel equal to or
dominant
> over their owners" and that they become confused.
Nonsense. I know many, many dogs who are allowed on furniture and/or to
sleep in the bed, and have no confusion over who's in charge, nor do they
"feel equal or dominant" to their owners.
IF you have a problem in your relationship with your dog, the problem may
arise over the issue of being on the furniture, and/or not being allowed on
the furniture may help to clarify things for the dog.
But the problem isn't *caused* by being allowed on the furniture.
> The trainer seemed to feel
> that allowing her in the bedroom at all is dire--she said that the dog >in
> such a case "feels like it can sleep in the alpha den" and thus feels
> "superior" to anyone who does not "sleep in the alpha den"--
And that's an even BIGGER lump of - sorry, but I'm going to drop the
euphemism - horse shit. I know far more dogs *not* allowed in the bedroom
who have relationship issues with their owners than vice versa.
Same as with being on the furniture, being allowed on the bed may become
an issue IF you have an existing issue in your relationship with your dog,
and not allowing it may make the relationship clearer. But it doesn't CAUSE
the problem.
I don't recall ever reading that "alphas" in wolf packs sleep all alone,
and in any case, dogs are NOT wolves.
My dogs not only sleep in the bedroom, they sleep in the bed with me. Far
from making them "feel dominant", it actually reinforces to them that I'm
the leader of the pack.
In fact, Rocsi, who has been with me since she was 14 weeks old and has
always slept in the bed - she was never crated at home - is about the most
non-dominant towards humans dog you'd ever want to meet. She also
consistently asks my permission before getting up on any furniture with me
(she's tucked under my arm asleep at the moment), which is not something
I've ever trained - she does it naturally.
She's also is *superb* with children of all ages, and adores babies and
toddlers - she seeks out toddlers at the park and gives her ball to them.
Which is made even more interesting by the fact that she's a Jack Russell
Terrier.
Finally, I think your trainer is missing the point - YOU are not the ones
whose relationship with the dog is the problem. The problem is in WALTER'S
relationship with the dog.
Reinforcing that you're "alpha", in fact, may make the dog *more* likely
to start up something with other lower-ranking members of the pack - which
Saskia clearly sees Walter as being.
IMO, you need to find another trainer - one who's not operating on outmoded
theory based on flawed obsevations of wolf packs, and seems to have
misunderstood it to boot.
Fortunately, you've had the common sense not to pay too much attention to
the sillier parts of what she's telling you.
Something that nobody has mentioned here, btw: are you familiar with the
concept of "puppy license"? It has struck me all along that part of what
may be going on here is that Walter's "puppy license" with Saskia has
started to expire.
Melinda Shore
Kathleen <khhfm...@thischarter.net> wrote:
>Primates threat-yawn, but I've never seen anything similar in any of my
>dogs.
I don't think I've seen anybody claim that dogs "threat-
yawn," but I don't think that there's any question when they
do it when they're under stress or when they want to
communicate to another dog that they're *not* a threat. I
suppose a rough human analog could be feigning nonchalance.
Melinda Shore
> Finally, I think your trainer is missing the point - YOU are not the ones
>whose relationship with the dog is the problem. The problem is in WALTER'S
>relationship with the dog.
It seems to me that the "dominance" issue with dogs has a
lot more to do with the dog thinking it gets to make certain
decisions than it does to do with the dog always doing this
or the dog always doing that. I haven't seen the dog and
neither have you, but while other trainers might choose to
use different language from what this one is using (and I
certainly would) I don't think that he/she is fundamentally
incorrect. The dog is not entitled to make the kinds of
decisions she's making.
Sionnach
"Sionnach" wrote:
> Reinforcing that you're "alpha", in fact, may make the dog *more* likely
> to start up something with other lower-ranking members of the pack - which
> Saskia clearly sees Walter as being.
To clarify that: I don't think that non-confrontationally and calmly
reinforcing the fact that you're the pack leader is something that will
cause problems.
However, I have seen serious problems caused when people who are not not
natural pack leaders, and who have had problems with the dog, suddenly start
trying to enforce "alpha" status.
Remind me, btw - how old is Saskia, again? Isn't she an adolescent?
White Monkey
always automatically trains them to be confused about dominance issues and
therefore is without question the root cause of what has happened here and
all that needs to be addressed to fix it. We do see how denying the
furniture right reasserts OUR dominance, and we'll be doing it. We also see
now how it could have contributed to any feelings of potential outranking
she may have about the baby, we just rather doubt it's the end-all-be-all
total-root-cause-horrifying-thing she made it out to be.
As to a trainer who can see Saskia in person, yes, I agree, and once we're
moved to Haarlem we'll be looking for one there. Meanwhile, though, after
talking with her again about this issue, we ARE somewhat dissatisfied with
the trainer we have used on occasion, because she "doesn't have time" to see
the problem through with us in person or even on the phone (and I mean for
pay, not charity work) and "doesn't want to hear about it again" (unless it
gets worse) for a month while we try the only thing she's really suggested
(aside from reading "Think Dog", which we will order), which is keep the dog
off the furniture. She sounded brusque and a) didn't feel a need to meet
with us and the dog about it, which we thought a bit odd, and b) never once
asked me what I did about it when the dog growled or snapped toward the
baby, which we also thought a bit odd. She just doesn't seem to want to get
involved. We'd rather someone who did.
So we will try to consult with this recommended woman long-distance while
researching through the local Danes society who the people with similar
problems have liked (in our new area) for this sort thing.
Thanks again folks,
Katrina
White Monkey
> concept of "puppy license"? It has struck me all along that part of what
> may be going on here is that Walter's "puppy license" with Saskia has
> started to expire.
This is very much something that I think plays a significant factor, as does
Saskia's just-coming-into-her-own tender age of 1 1/2. I remain confident
that if we can manage this and get through it without further incident it
will become a phase instead of a lifelong worry. At least I hope so.
--Katrina
White Monkey
"Sionnach" <rhyf...@msn.com> wrote in message
news:3qst91F...@individual.net...
She is. We understand what she's going through and that we need to be very
consistent right now, and have been failing this utterly the last few weeks.
Well, maybe not utterly, but enough to really matter. We've corrected this
now.
We also feel and hope that we are good leaders--firm but not harsh,
demanding that she do what we tell her and not do what she knows she's not
allowed to do (graze from the table or high chair for example), and also
loving and friendly and entertaining. We never expect her to do just
something she hasn't leaned, and we always expect her to do something she
has learned when she knows it's time to do it.
We try to be flexible, too--just now Walter decided to go along between the
coffee table and the couch, walking sideways, and it's narrow there and
Saskers was standing there and wanted to get out of his way. She couldn't go
backward or forward because she knows not to when the baby is crawling or
cruising alongside or under her. In a desperate move, she got onto the
Forbidden Sofa, by going straight sideways, and watched him go by. Then she
looked at me. I chose not to reprimand for getting on the sofa, but I did
insist quietly that she immediately get off, and when she hesitated (Danes
can be stubborn) I was firm. She then took *three* feet off the sofa (Danes
can be stubborn), but we have taught her the words "all the way", and she
knows darn well she'd better do it if we say that, whether it's complete a
sit from a goofy crouch or get the rest of the way off the sofa.
We expect a lot of her but we can always see that she tries very hard to do
what we want unless she's having a stubborn moment, then she'll push it so
far and cave, every time. She really is trying to do right around him, too.
Really. Again just now, she was kicking her bone around with her foot and he
took off straight for it. She saw him coming, froze, wrinkled her head all
up, and looked at me. Then she just watched him. I chose to let him (with me
within arm's reach) get right under her nose, where she proceeded to sniff
his head and wag. Then just as I was about to do something, he decided to
leave without touching the bone, which I think was darned helpful of him.
--Katrina
MauiJNP
> Meanwhile, the trainer told me to stop letting her on furniture
if you really want to listen to the trainer but hate to ban her from the
furniture, maybe you could just teach her to always get permission from you
before getting up?
White Monkey
"MauiJNP" <jmh...@ptd.net> wrote in message
news:8Y-cnZoiHNc...@ptd.net...
Oh, we don't mind not letting her up, we just question whether doing so in
the first place caused this situation. But we're going to allow her to get
onto the bed briefly and after sitting down and waiting for one of us to say
OK, when she just wants to say hi before going to bed on HER bed. I can't
see that doing a heck of a lot of harm, especially as Walter will ALSO be
getting on the bed but not sleeping there.
Thanks,
Katrina
Ronna
>
> Again just now, she was kicking her bone around with her foot and he
> took off straight for it. She saw him coming, froze, wrinkled her head all
> up, and looked at me. Then she just watched him. I chose to let him (with me
> within arm's reach) get right under her nose, where she proceeded to sniff
> his head and wag. Then just as I was about to do something, he decided to
> leave without touching the bone, which I think was darned helpful of him.
> --Katrina
This could have been tragic. It's not fair to the dog to set her up to
resource guard when you are just beginning resource guarding training,
and you should NEVER use the baby to test her. Same thing with the
coffee table scenario, you let the baby essentially trap her; to a dog
it's fight or flight, and this also could have been tragic.
Many dogs have a problem with crawling babies, I had a GSD who did not
care for my daughter as a crawling baby. My dog never snapped at the
baby, but she did flutter her lips at her when the baby crawled towards
her.
As soon as my daughter started walking, the dog was fine with her. But
during that time, I was very careful to never set the dog up to be
trapped or threatened by the baby.
White Monkey
>> took off straight for it. She saw him coming, froze, wrinkled her head
>> all
>> up, and looked at me. Then she just watched him. I chose to let him (with
>> me
>> within arm's reach) get right under her nose, where she proceeded to
>> sniff
>> his head and wag. Then just as I was about to do something, he decided to
>> leave without touching the bone, which I think was darned helpful of him.
>> --Katrina
>
> This could have been tragic. It's not fair to the dog to set her up to
> resource guard when you are just beginning resource guarding training,
> and you should NEVER use the baby to test her. Same thing with the
> coffee table scenario, you let the baby essentially trap her; to a dog
> it's fight or flight, and this also could have been tragic.
I guess I misunderstood the trainer's advice abnd other advice I have
received about not making a big deal out of him being near her or her stuff.
I was watching her both times and I know when something concerns her, and
these didn't--she was completely relaxed about it. I shouldn't have used the
term "desperation", I meant "unable to think of anything else to do". But
OK, I guess I'll have to start making a big deal out of keeping them apoart,
because she insists on being near him while he plays, and he moves all over
the place all the time and this is a very small aprtment currently
overfilled with moving boxes. The only ways to do it will be to remiove him
physically when he gets anywhere near her or her stuff, which I though was
not the point, and to tell her to go away when she comes up toward him,
whcih we were trying to back off on doing so she wouldn't associate him with
gfeeling unwelcome. In the coffee table scenario she didn't feel trapped; he
shoves by her alll the time and she just wags. She just wanted to give him
more room, same as she would with on e of us. But point taken.
> Many dogs have a problem with crawling babies,
She deliberately lies down with her face in his way and will move her head
so that he will keep crawlking across her face; she'll scoot in a circle
doing this.
> care for my daughter as a crawling baby. My dog never snapped at the
> baby, but she did flutter her lips at her when the baby crawled towards
> her.
Saskia lies down or holds still and wags when he crawls toward her. The only
two instances of any sign of displeasure with him were while she was
actively chewing on sometheing he reached for, and each time there were
extenuating circumstances.
I'll find a new way to do this but I'm not sure what. I can't just tell her
to keep away from him--I think it was doing that excessively that
contributed to the problem. What do you suggest?
--Katrina
-
Rocky
rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
> Now, I'm not so sure I buy this. What do you folks feel
> about this one? For the record, if I wasn't keeping an open
> mind about it I would not be posting to try to explore it.
I agree with the trainer. Yawning is generally a sign of
stress, as is sniffing and other avoidance gestures.
--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
Rocky
rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
> The trainer stated that "dogs allowed on furniture feel
> equal to or dominant over their owners" and that they
> become confused.
Saskia appears to obey you you in most ways. Does she get off
the furniture *immediately* when told to? If she doesn't, then
it's more of a guarding issue, and not necessarily dominance.
And, IMO, resource guarding is a very serious concern.
TO...@dog-play.com
> Saskia yawns when we rub her cheeks. She yawns when she's been being a butt
> head (like not wanting to come in after a potty trip) and we tell her firmly
> to do it (she yawns and comes in), she yawns when we call her over, and
> after the growl incident at the baby she yawned at him and looked away. Now,
> I thought this was a submission gesture, meant to indicate non-aggression.
> The trainer, however, said it means stress, that Saskia is always under high
> stress when she does it. I asked, "What about if Saskia ambles over, leans
> against my legs, wags, and solicits petting of her side, and when I do pet
> her side like she likes, she yawns?" Trainer: "Stress. She doesn't really
> like it. She's stressed out."
> Now, I'm not so sure I buy this. What do you folks feel about this one? For
> the record, if I wasn't keeping an open mind about it I would not be posting
> to try to explore it.
Yawning has been considered to be a sign of stress in both humans and
animals for quite a while.
http://members.aol.com/nonverbal2/yawn.htm
http://www.mindtools.com/stressym.html
--
Diane Blackman
There is no moral victory in proclaiming to abhor violence
while preaching with violent words.
http://dog-play.com/ http://dogplayshops.com/
White Monkey
> animals for quite a while.
>
> http://members.aol.com/nonverbal2/yawn.htm
> http://www.mindtools.com/stressym.html
So when she actively solicits petting, leans on my knees, wags, and yawns
once, she's stressed out? I am happy to believe it is often a sign of
stress, but always? If she's always stressed out of her mind we'll have to
have her put down if anything happens again, because this has been happening
even while she seems relaxed, and has a big happy smile, since long before
the baby as born. To rehome her if she's that stressed would be cruel, given
her anxiety issues. She adores us, including Walter, but even our good
friends are treated cautiously and people on the street can't get near her.
It would absolutely terrify her to go to someone else, but we were willing
to consider it if anything happens again because she gets used to people
over time, but not if all the time when we've thought she was relaxed she's
actually stressed out!! But of course we will assume that she's capable of
being happy even if she does yawn at times when we think she's relaxed, and
if next-to-worst comes to next-to worst we'll look for a good childless home
for her.
We are both very depressed at the prospect, especially given that she is
still treating the baby with love and respect except the two very brief,
widely separated incidents. We'll see how it goes at the new house, where
there will be more room, her crate to retreat to, more exercise, more play,
more training, less opportunity to get into trouble because we'll be
babyproofing from scratch and this time instead of moving from a big house
to a tiny apartment we're moving from a tiny apartment to a big apartment,
so we won't have to pile stuff everywhere. It's difficult to keep the baby
from trying to touch her and her things when she insists on being right next
to him, but we'll find a way--he is still a bit young to grasp the "pet
nicely" concept but we are working on it..
If we do end up having to rehome her, by the way, I have a question., Her
breeder has a clause in the contract that we must give her the first chance
to take Saskia if we need to rehome her. Saskia would not be happy there. We
were not as well informed when we bought her--the dogs there spend the
nights in kennels and the days mobbing about the house and yard in a group.
Saskia would be very upset spending the night in a kennel and would be
"bottom dog" with the group: she's a pushover and they have a hierarchy
going; there are 7 or so of them. The question is, in general how open do
breeders tend to be to letting the owner rehome a dog that isn't suitable
for breeding or showing? I would explain to her that we would use the
resources of the National Great Dane society, which has an excellent
placement program, is the oldest "special interest club" in the Netherlands,
and has a long waiting list of experienced Dane people waiting for the right
dog.
--Katrina
White Monkey
"Rocky" <2d...@rocky-dog.com> wrote in message
news:Fri96EABACF8F10Cau...@rocky-dog.com...
> "White Monkey" <k.m.c...@chello.nl> said in
> rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
>
>> The trainer stated that "dogs allowed on furniture feel
>> equal to or dominant over their owners" and that they
>> become confused.
>
> Saskia appears to obey you you in most ways. Does she get off
> the furniture *immediately* when told to?
Off the bed, yes. With sofas she can be a bit stubborn and need to be told a
couple of times. But "her sofa" is goone and she's not allowed on the one
that remains.
>If she doesn't, then
> it's more of a guarding issue, and not necessarily dominance.
> And, IMO, resource guarding is a very serious concern.
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
I know it is, but we still haven't seen more than just the two moments of
it, which we pray we can attribute to adolescence, expiring puppy license,
and a confusion about hierarchy, and which we pray we can fix with
consistency and training. It would break our hearts to have to rehome her,
and yes, we know that's not the worst that could happen, but we believe that
we would see at least one more warning before anything got serious--she just
isn't an aggressive dog, with people or with dogs, and I think she'd have to
be pushed pretty damn far to actually bite. She doesn't attempt to bite, for
example, or growl or anything, when things have to happen like getting
weighed (the vet technician and I have to wrestle her onto the scale, and
she is scared) or the time the orthopedist's staff held her still for neck
x-rays a few months ago.
--Katrina
Bob & Shelly
> So far so good here, we're getting Saskia out a lot more, playing ball and
> things more instead of just taking her to places where she can run and play
> with other dogs, working more on reinforcing basic obedience, making sure
> she sees the baby as a positive influence ("Look, Saskia, Walter's awake!
> Now we can go for a walk!"), etc. She seems calmer and her self-confidence
> seems a bit better again.
>
> Meanwhile, the trainer told me to stop letting her on furniture, to not make
> a big deal out of the baby handling her things, and to let her know how
> things are going in about a month. She also said something I wanted to run
> by you folks.
>
> Saskia yawns when we rub her cheeks. She yawns when she's been being a butt
> head (like not wanting to come in after a potty trip) and we tell her firmly
> to do it (she yawns and comes in), she yawns when we call her over, and
> after the growl incident at the baby she yawned at him and looked away. Now,
> I thought this was a submission gesture, meant to indicate non-aggression.
> The trainer, however, said it means stress, that Saskia is always under high
> stress when she does it. I asked, "What about if Saskia ambles over, leans
> against my legs, wags, and solicits petting of her side, and when I do pet
> her side like she likes, she yawns?" Trainer: "Stress. She doesn't really
> like it. She's stressed out."
Hi Katrina,
I mostly just lurk here, but had to comment on this one. My daughter
discovered our ESS, Abby, also does this "trick". We can easily get her
to yawn by rubbing the sides of her muzzle or her forehead. She does
not appear to be stressed in any way (usually when sitting there, calm
as can be, with her head on one of our our laps, with that glazed look
of complete contentment in her eyes...).
Though who knows, maybe she is stressed too. But I'd certainly never
guess it. But then we don't allow her on our couch either as that's the
cat's spot. And Abby certainly knows that the cat is her superior
(which is really quite comical considering she is 4 times as big as the
cat).
Good luck with your situation... it sounds as though you are getting a
handle on it.
Shelly
White Monkey
>> butt head (like not wanting to come in after a potty trip) and we tell
>> her firmly to do it (she yawns and comes in), she yawns when we call her
>> over, and after the growl incident at the baby she yawned at him and
>> looked away. Now, I thought this was a submission gesture, meant to
>> indicate non-aggression. The trainer, however, said it means stress, that
>> Saskia is always under high stress when she does it. I asked, "What about
>> if Saskia ambles over, leans against my legs, wags, and solicits petting
>> of her side, and when I do pet her side like she likes, she yawns?"
>> Trainer: "Stress. She doesn't really like it. She's stressed out."
>
> Hi Katrina,
>
> I mostly just lurk here, but had to comment on this one. My daughter
> discovered our ESS, Abby, also does this "trick". We can easily get her
> to yawn by rubbing the sides of her muzzle or her forehead. She does not
> appear to be stressed in any way (usually when sitting there, calm as can
> be, with her head on one of our our laps, with that glazed look of
> complete contentment in her eyes...).
>
> Though who knows, maybe she is stressed too. But I'd certainly never
> guess it. But then we don't allow her on our couch either as that's the
> cat's spot. And Abby certainly knows that the cat is her superior (which
> is really quite comical considering she is 4 times as big as the cat).
>
> Good luck with your situation... it sounds as though you are getting a
> handle on it.
>
> Shelly
Thank you! I sincerely HOPE we're getting a handle on it! We really love
this dog. We've tried to do everything right by her--we even had her stomach
tacked during her spay to reduce any effects if she should ever bloat. I
still have a feeling she's just going through a "butt-head" period related
to her age, the baby's age, and the stresses of the past few weeks..... I
sincerely hope we're right. We're trying to follow all the advice, but it
can be difficult. For example, I have read this book, "Mine!", carefully
now, and there is no real way to apply it to our situation--it talks about
building a "guarding hierarchy" and moving her up by stages to the point
where her things can be handled under any circumstances, but we adults can
always handle all of her things all the time, and it seemed that the baby
could except for these two incidents that on the face of it look random. On
the face of it it looks like the first time was "because" the day before,
she had her first real dog-on-dog guarding moment when she wouldn't let a
lab have his ball back (and I learned by getting my hand in the way that she
has excellent bite inhibition) and the second was with a brand new toy,
which the literature says (understandably) makes it particularly high value
(but I could still take it right out of her mouth). I really hope we're just
dealing with a "teenager" having a little misunderstanding about her rank.
Slightly OT, I just got the results of her second opinion. She was diagnosed
a few months back with "probable wobblers" and we have been scared. The
second orthopedist, a very respected one we were referred to, called today.
First of all he feels that her regular vet was a little overzealous in
diagnosing a flat hip--he feels her hips look well within normal for a Dane.
The wobblers diagnosed by the local orthopedist, he says, does appear to be
just that but a very mild form, and provided we keep using the harness
instead of a collar and keep limiting her "bruiser play" with big dogs, he
sees no reason at this point to assume it will progress, given the type of
vertebral tilt and spinal narrowing, the location, and the symptomology at
her age. He thinks she will probably just lead a normal life with very
occasional yelp-and-limp moments when her neck is stressed. There's only
been one incident in the last months--she was lying on the sofa (yes, the
one that's gone), and turned to look at me in a very awkward way, with her
neck twisted funny. She yelped. It's always all over in under 30 seconds. So
anyway, we are extremely relieved that he thinks that it probably won't
progress, that she's definitely NOT in any day-to-day pain because there is
no nerve impingement, and that if it ever did progress it should be
manageable for years with anti-inflammatories. Wobblers is a scary thing,
and we were very concerned about it.
Totally OT, Walter cut his first tooth yesterday. Here's hoping the other
one he's working on pops through soon!
--Katrina
TO...@dog-play.com
>> Yawning has been considered to be a sign of stress in both humans and
>> animals for quite a while.
> So when she actively solicits petting, leans on my knees, wags, and yawns
> once, she's stressed out? I am happy to believe it is often a sign of
> stress, but always?
Look did I SAY always? I'm out of this conversation. I talk to rational
people.
White Monkey
>>> animals for quite a while.
>> So when she actively solicits petting, leans on my knees, wags, and yawns
>> once, she's stressed out? I am happy to believe it is often a sign of
>> stress, but always?
> Look did I SAY always? I'm out of this conversation. I talk to rational
> people.
> Diane Blackman
You didn't but the trainer did, and I was asking about that statement, thus
the subject header and phrasing of the original post. I apologize for how I
put that, if it came across so badly. I always respect your advice and thank
you for it, and am upset to be called irrational for asking about my
trainer's statement that it is always a sign of stress. I said, the trainer
says this is always a sign of stress. You answered, yes, it is a sign of
stress. I thought by then asking if you were saying it always was, I was,
well, asking! Again, sorry if it looked any different. This whole thing has
me very upset and distressed, and you could cut me a little slack, please!
I'm just trying to learn how to keep my baby safe without having to lose my
dog. I value your advice! I'm sorry I seem to often put things in ways that
piss you off! I don't mean to, OK? People don't always communicate in the
same style, don't always say things the way other people expect them to
sound, don't always mean what people assume they mean, that's life,
especially life in a situation devoid of tone of voice and facial
expression.
And it was an interesting article, thank you.
--Katrina
White Monkey
<TO...@dog-play.com> wrote in message news:3qump4F...@individual.net...
> On Mon, 10 Oct 2005 08:53:54 +0200 White Monkey <k.m.c...@chello.nl>
> whittled these words:
>>> Yawning has been considered to be a sign of stress in both humans and
>>> animals for quite a while.
>
>> So when she actively solicits petting, leans on my knees, wags, and yawns
>> once, she's stressed out? I am happy to believe it is often a sign of
>> stress, but always?
>
> Look did I SAY always? I'm out of this conversation. I talk to rational
> people.
I do mean it, I'm sorry that sounded like that, I'm under a lot of stress
here and it just didn't come off right. I just don't think I deserve the
rational people barb--I do my best to deal fairly and open-mindedly in this
group, sometimes when things are really stressy and I'm not getting any
sleep and I'm in the middle of packing to move to a place that looks like it
may be handed over as a dump after all and I'm scared about maybe having to
lose my dog and the baby is fussy and teething, I may read something wrong
and get a bit tetchy and slip up, but I really don't think I have in general
earned the irrational brand... anyway, sorry! I mean it! Can we just ignore
that post altogether or something?
--Katrina
White Monkey
her things if she isn't chewing on them. Today she noticed that her Nylabone
was under the (cold) radiator. She pawed for it, then looked at me in her
"please get it" way. I said, "Hey Walter (he was in my lap) let's get Saskia
her Nylabone!" Saskia wagged. I had her sit, several feet back from the
scene of the action, and crouched down, putting Walter on the floor. He
completely ignored the Nylabone but Saskia couldn't see that. I said,
"Walter, can you get Saskia's Nylabone out for her?" and reached under and
got it, making sure she couldn't see that he didn't, and being sure to bump
it against the back of his hand so it would smell like he'd touched it. I
gave it to Saskia and said she could stop sitting. She nosed the Nylabone,
then went straight over to where Walter was on the other side of me trying
to reach a potted plant on the windowsill, and wagged all over at him,
licking his hands and giving him a big smile, and then she went back and got
the Nylabone and took it over to her blankets to chew on it. It sure looked
like she gave him the same "thanks" she gives one of us when we "rescue"
something for her.
--Katrina
shelly
>The only ways to do it will be to remiove him physically when
>he gets anywhere near her or her stuff,
if i were in your position, my dog wouldn't *have* any
"stuff." if she were resource guarding space and toys, the
*first* thing i would have done is taken those things away.
i would return a limited number of toys to her after she'd
earned them. i would take up the toys after she was finished
with them, and would be very careful not to leave any toys
lying around, where they could spark another confrontation. i
would absolutely not allow her to have toys in the baby's
presence.
>Saskia lies down or holds still and wags when he crawls
>toward her. The only two instances of any sign of displeasure
>with him were while she was actively chewing on sometheing he
>reached for, and each time there were extenuating
>circumstances.
if she'd bitten Walter, would you feel that the circumstances
were "extenuating" enough?
--
shelly
http://www.cat-sidh.net
http://cat-sidh.blogspot.com/
White Monkey
> if i were in your position, my dog wouldn't *have* any
> "stuff." if she were resource guarding space and toys, the
> *first* thing i would have done is taken those things away.
> i would return a limited number of toys to her after she'd
> earned them. i would take up the toys after she was finished
> with them, and would be very careful not to leave any toys
> lying around, where they could spark another confrontation. i
> would absolutely not allow her to have toys in the baby's
> presence.
It was the advice of the rtainer and a few people on the Danes groups not to
take this approach, but she will be limited to chewing on stuff in her crate
at the new place. I haven't ruled out this approach, either.
>>Saskia lies down or holds still and wags when he crawls
>>toward her. The only two instances of any sign of displeasure
>>with him were while she was actively chewing on sometheing he
>>reached for, and each time there were extenuating
>>circumstances.
>
> if she'd bitten Walter, would you feel that the circumstances
> were "extenuating" enough?
Extenuating enough for *what*? I don't think they're "extenuating enough" to
excuse anything, if that's what you're implying. Did you think I was making
some sort of excuse for her??? I was using that to explain among other
things why one particular book would be difficult to apply to this situation
because the circumstances involved factors that were very individual and
won't be repeated, so it is at this moment impossible to predict if it will
happen again, as I don't know of any triggers besides the ones apparently
extant at those times. Also to explain that she doesn't seem uncomfortable
with him crawling toward her, as she has never reacted badly to that and the
two times she has reacted like that he was NOT crawling, so we don't think
she has a problem with the crawling. It has nothing to do with any kind of
excuse for her. Just answering the subject that was at hand.
If she bit him we'd have to have her put down.
--Katrina
shelly
>It was the advice of the rtainer and a few people on the
>Danes groups not to take this approach, but she will be
>limited to chewing on stuff in her crate at the new place. I
>haven't ruled out this approach, either.
that's your prerogative. but, it seems to me that removing
the obvious trigger is the *first* step in getting the
situation under immediate control.
i've dealt with resource guarding, and it's not a pretty
thing. the triggers aren't always clearly visible to us
humans, and the reaction on the part of the dog can be so
lightning quick that even if you are right next to the dog,
you might not be able to intervene in time to stop disaster
from happening. you've been *very* lucky thus far.
>>>Saskia lies down or holds still and wags when he crawls
>>>toward her. The only two instances of any sign of displeasure
>>>with him were while she was actively chewing on sometheing he
>>>reached for, and each time there were extenuating
>>>circumstances.
>>
>>if she'd bitten Walter, would you feel that the
>>circumstances were "extenuating" enough?
>
>Extenuating enough for *what*? I don't think they're
>"extenuating enough" to excuse anything, if that's what
>you're implying. Did you think I was making some sort of
>excuse for her???
no. i think--and this is obviously based only on your posts
here, so i really don't have much to go on--that you may not
be taking this as seriously as i would. i've said before that
aggression toward humans is a deal breaker for me.
>I was using that to explain among other things why one
>particular book would be difficult to apply to this situation
>because the circumstances involved factors that were very
>individual and won't be repeated, so it is at this moment
>impossible to predict if it will happen again, as I don't
>know of any triggers besides the ones apparently extant at
>those times.
i guess that's what i don't understand. i don't see the
circumstances you've described as being individual/different.
they are, i think, quite similar.
if a dog is resource guarding--and it certainly sounds to me
as if that's what Saskia's doing--the first thing i would do
is take away those resources. yet, this is not the advice
your trainer has given you. that makes no sense to me.
>If she bit him we'd have to have her put down.
see, if it were me, i'd be assuming the worst and proceeding
as if she *had* bitten him. i don't mean that she should be
put down, but that it sounds to me as if you aren't taking
this as seriously as i would. by that, i mean that if you
*know* she's acted aggressively when Walter has approached her
while she's chewing/playing with a toy, then i would think the
obvious first and *immediate* step would be to take those
things away from her. that's basic management.
White Monkey
not "shopping"; I thought this was where we discuss this sort of thing. I
have a trainer, I am not satisfied that she thinks that only actually seeing
the dog once many months ago and telling me to keep her off the furniture is
enough in this case, so I have considered exactly one more, one recommended
by the publisher of the book everyone told me to read about resource
guarding Never heard back from her, so I guess I'm out of luck there. I have
also stated that finding one in the new area who has experience will be a
priority, and that I will look for said person by asking the people in the
local breed club who they think is good with this sort of situation. As to
taking her stuff away, OK, good advice, not what her trainer said, but good
advice. So how do we prevent her being bored? A lot of the time she just
settles down with her Nylabone for a good chew and I want to know how to
keep her mentally satisfied at these times. As to talking to her like that,
that was a specific suggestion on the Danes group to make her feel more
involved with Walter and see him as something that can cause rewards like
walks. OK, so how should I talk to her, in your opinion? How shoudl I convey
that Walter is connected with good things? I'm taking this seriously, I just
don't automatically know the best thing to do, like you folks seem to, and
don't feel that asking advice should be seen as being frivilous. I'm very
upset and depressed abou the whole thing, and scared. Happy?
--Katrina
Ronna
White Monkey wrote:
> Well, thanks folks. I have said we are keeping her off the furniture.
Have you put her in NILIF? It's a rather easy to follow technique, and
it includes taking away all of the dogs priveleges, including toys,
bones, furniture, etc.
I don't understand why you seem to be so resistent to the advice given
here regarding your dog losing her privleges. There is no magic cure
all for your dog, you are going to have to do some "tough love" stuff
if you want your child to be safe. Keeping your child safe is number
one, and you don't want him to have to be bitten so your dog is put
down. Not fair to the child or the dog.
Saskia's perception of Walter may change once he starts walking, and in
the meantime you need to start something NOW. You need to be
consistent, patient, don't set your dog up to fail, and don't use your
child as "bait".
Keeping your baby away from the dog is not going to make the dog
dislike the baby more. Its going to keep your baby safe while you
desensitize your dog.
Ronna
>
>>
> if a dog is resource guarding--and it certainly sounds to me
> as if that's what Saskia's doing--the first thing i would do
> is take away those resources. yet, this is not the advice
> your trainer has given you. that makes no sense to me.
>
Exactly. Your dog has to learn that YOU control the resources, not
her. By doing NILIF, you will teach your dog that she has to do what
you tell her to do in order to get the things she likes. She will come
to understand that you are the resource queen, not her :)
Ronna
>that Walter is connected with good things? I'm taking this seriously
You can do this without actually having to put your child in potential
harms way. Whenever you get Walter up from his bed, have a special
treat for the dog that she gets as soon as Walter is out and about.
When you pick him up, tell her good girl and hand her the treat. She
only gets the treat when Walter is around. Make is something she
really, really, loves. Keep it simple so that the dog can connect
Walter to a good thing.
White Monkey
> it includes taking away all of the dogs priveleges, including toys,
> bones, furniture, etc.
I have to discuss it with my husband, but I am in favor of it.
>>How should I convey
I like this. Like a quickly-gone treat like a piece of liverwurst, or a
stays-around treat like a rawhide? If the latter, a lot of stuff makes her
break out so I'm not sure what I would use.
Since she always acts like she loves Walter except these two incidents, how
will I know if it's all working?
--Katrina
Janet B
<k.m.c...@chello.nl>, clicked their heels and said:
> As to
>taking her stuff away, OK, good advice, not what her trainer said, but good
>advice. So how do we prevent her being bored? A lot of the time she just
>settles down with her Nylabone for a good chew and I want to know how to
>keep her mentally satisfied at these times.
It depends. She needs schedule periods of interaction and exercise in
order for her not to NEED (not the same as enjoy) settling down for a
good chew. If you give her those, she'll be napping.
>As to talking to her like that,
>that was a specific suggestion on the Danes group to make her feel more
>involved with Walter and see him as something that can cause rewards like
>walks. OK, so how should I talk to her, in your opinion?
Nobody here can hear your tone of voice. I'm very conversational with
my dogs, but I also don't believe they need to be involved with
everything I'm doing with a child - in other words - the child has
priority for my attention.
I provided daycare in my home for several years, to several different
infants and toddlers - all very different. Rules were the same no
matter what though, and it's not-so-amazing that all creatures figure
them out pretty fast. Dogs included. The children were my primary
focus (1-3 of them). Then my dog(s). Dogs were around the entire
time, but not necessarily included in the activity - they just were
THERE. I think that helped make it pretty clear to them, who was
really important.
The dog(s) in those days weren't allowed on furniture, but had dog
beds. Kids were allowed to snuggle with dogs in dog beds, but not
PLAY. No toys, no activity - quiet time only. The dog(s) had "their"
space that way, but had to share it, but with rules for the kids.
Made everyone happy and safe.
BTW - these were children anywhere from 6 weeks to 3+ years - all
capable of learning to act appropriately while crawling, cruising,
walking, etc.
>How shoudl I convey
>that Walter is connected with good things?
See above - you make him your priority, while she exists. I suggested
the other day, having him "throw" a toy for her for instance. This is
done with you on the floor with him in your lap, taking his little
hand and showing him how.
You also choose specific times to engage with her - all on your terms.
That's really all it boils down to.
--
Janet B
www.bestfriendsdogobedience.com
http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/bestfriendsobedience/album
Ronna
White Monkey wrote:
> > Have you put her in NILIF? It's a rather easy to follow technique, and
> > it includes taking away all of the dogs priveleges, including toys,
> > bones, furniture, etc.
>
> I have to discuss it with my husband, but I am in favor of it.
Why? It's not cruel or anything, and it's something that a good
behaviorist would recommend, among other things.
>
> I like this. Like a quickly-gone treat like a piece of liverwurst, or a
> stays-around treat like a rawhide? If the latter, a lot of stuff makes her
> break out so I'm not sure what I would use.
You use something she really likes. Of course you don't use something
she is allergic to.
> Since she always acts like she loves Walter except these two incidents, how
> will I know if it's all working?
If nothing is done, two incidences may become 4, or 5, and so on. She
may start guarding things other than her chewie, like her space. So
don't be complacent and think she won't do it again. Err on the side of
caution.
How do you know if it works? Well, she's not going to hold up a sign
one day that says "I heart Walter" :) All you can do is keep the baby
safe, teach the dog that you control the resources, and as the baby
grows you will be able to tell whats going on in the dogs mind.
sighthounds & siberians
Katrina,
Don't let the comments people made to you get you upset. FWIW, which
is probably nothing, I don't think there's necessarily anything wrong
with questioning advice that doesn't make sense to you. (And what
your trainer said about letting dogs on furniture making them dominant
is nonsense.) I also agree with you that your trainer having seen
your dog exactly once does not make her the be-all and end-all expert
in this situation, and trying to consult someone who wrote a book on
resource guarding is not a bad idea. You can see by now that there is
no group opinion on anything - - you've gotten conflicting advice from
a number of sources, including different people here. I'd suggest
concentrating on the advice everyone agrees on - - keeping her off the
furniture, working on obedience training even if right now that means
just working on the commands she knows and having her earn rewards - -
and making finding a good trainer a priority. And, of course,
supervise, supervise, supervise, but you know that. As to how you
talk to her, I think the Dane group's advice was fine. I've heard
that advice for other situations, such as two dogs that don't get
along, a dog that wants to chase a cat, etc. Saskia isn't going to
understand all the words you say, and neither is Walter, right now.
Using both their names in a happy voice can help Saskia think that
being around Walter brings good things. If people disagree about the
words you should use in talking to her, talk to her about the
government or something. As to Saskia's stuff, of course she has to
have toys and things to keep her from being bored. But if she's
having resource guarding problems, she needs to not see those things
as hers, she needs to think they're yours, and you give them to her
when she earns them. Earning them could just be sitting, or doing a
short down/stay.
Hang in there. I'm not a trainer so my opinion is worth what you paid
for it, but I think you're doing your best to work on this problem,
and there's nothing wrong with trying to understand the reasoning
behind the advice you're being given, or even with disagreeing with
it. And I certainly don't think you're being irrational.
Mustang Sally
White Monkey
>
While we're working on computers and the baby's asleep? While we're out?
While we want to be watching a movie on TV? I mean, I agree, lots of
obedience training. It's when we can't be paying attention to her that she
gets bored.
--Katrina
White Monkey
>
> Why? It's not cruel or anything, and it's something that a good
> behaviorist would recommend, among other things.
Because if I don't discuss it with him he won't know what it is, how to do
it, or if he is also in favor of doing it.
-Katrina
Janet B
<k.m.c...@chello.nl>, clicked their heels and said:
>
>
>While we're working on computers and the baby's asleep? While we're out?
>While we want to be watching a movie on TV? I mean, I agree, lots of
>obedience training. It's when we can't be paying attention to her that she
>gets bored.
>--Katrina
a tired dog is a good dog. what does she DO if she's bored?
shelly
>While we're working on computers and the baby's asleep? While
>we're out? While we want to be watching a movie on TV? I
>mean, I agree, lots of obedience training. It's when we can't
>be paying attention to her that she gets bored.
like Janet said, a tired dog is a good dog. if Saskia were
getting more mental and physical exercise, she would spend
more time sleeping and less time chewing. also, when her
mental and physical exercise needs are met, there is no reason
why she has to be occupied every waking moment. when
harriet's being a pain in my arse, i tell her to lie down (out
of the way) or i send her to her crate, so that she can
contemplate the meaning of life for awhile. it won't kill
her.
since you're especially pressed for time right now, could you
hire someone to come walk Saskia? even a couple of good walks
a week might could make a difference. another thing you can
do, if you're short on time, is to give her commands to follow
while you're busy. have her do an extended down, or have her
heel around the house (well, probably not the latter, as
you've said you're short on space). or, pause your movie for
a few minutes and work with Saskia, teaching her a new trick
or behavior.
White Monkey
>>While we want to be watching a movie on TV? I mean, I agree, lots of
>>obedience training. It's when we can't be paying attention to her that she
>>gets bored.
>>--Katrina
>
> a tired dog is a good dog.
Things will improve at the new place, with the running area so close by.
Here, we have a choice of two--a small one where she won't bother getting
enough exercise if there's no dog to play with (she just stands around, but
will half-heartedly chase a ball or stick a couple of times), or the real
park, but that one's a 25 minute walk away and we do get here there as often
as possible, but with all the illnesses and stresses of the last few weeks,
we have been remiss. At the new place wejust have to walk to the end of the
block, an dthere's about an acre of hilly woodland park specifically posted
as an area wgere dogs can run free. In a place like that if we keep walking
around and around the area she will keep running. We may not be able to
manage more than 1/2 hour twice a day on many days, but with the scheduled
obedience training it should be enough most days. Eh?
>what does she DO if she's bored?
> Janet B
Solicits play with one or another pull-toy, sees if the cat is up for some
pokey-dog-slap-cat (they really get along), stuffs her face under her
blankets and bulldozes them around, solicits "blanket on the dog", hunts
obsessively for scraps around the high chair, and when really at a loss gets
into trouble by table-surfing or trying to get at the cat food.
--Katrina
shelly
>I like this. Like a quickly-gone treat like a piece of
>liverwurst, or a stays-around treat like a rawhide? If the
>latter, a lot of stuff makes her break out so I'm not sure
>what I would use.
i would use something super yummy, but that is quickly eaten.
rawhide is out, as that gets you right back to square one. a
small piece of chicken, cheese, or liverwurst should do the
trick.
White Monkey
> hire someone to come walk Saskia?
I can look into the many walking services here, but Saskia is really afraid
of people. After a few times she'd warm up, but if she was offlead she might
never let them catch her, and right now it's hard to get her enough exercise
on-lead. She's a real runner. But at the new place we will be getting her
out a lot more, both across the street to the running area and along on the
shopping trips and such. Dogs are welcome here on most shops.
>another thing you can
> do, if you're short on time, is to give her commands to follow
> while you're busy. have her do an extended down,
> shelly
Any tips on extending her down? She gets anxious or bored or antsy and gets
up, and we end up repeating the command and saying"no!' or "foix it!" a lot
and everyone gets frustrated.
--Katrina
shelly
>Any tips on extending her down? She gets anxious or bored or
>antsy and gets up, and we end up repeating the command and
>saying"no!' or "foix it!" a lot and everyone gets frustrated.
i'm obviously not a trainer, but...
every time the dog breaks position, it puts you back ten steps
training-wise. it's impossible to tell if Saskia is breaking
position because she is testing you, because she's impatient,
because you've asked for too much time too soon, or because
she's not really sure what "down" means (in other words, it's
a position, not an action, and should be held until given
another command).
i wouldn't want to correct a dog for my own oversight, so it's
important to understand why she isn't complying. for example,
it may be obvious to you that she knows the command and is
just testing you, but it could actually be that she doesn't
get the idea that she has to stay in position until she's
released. lots of dogs are fuzzy about releases, because
their owners are not as clear with them as they think they're
being.
or, it could be that you added time too quickly, and she
wasn't ready for it. if that's the case, back off to an
amount of time you know she can down for, and make sure she's
rock-solid with that before adding more time. then, gradually
add time and proof her until she's able to down for longer
periods.
i also vary the lengths of time i ask the dog to down.
sometimes, it's just for a moment, others, it's for 5, 10, 20
minutes. (this is more of a "place" command, not a formal
down. i don't personally care if my dog stretches out on her
side, or if she grumbles and huffs at me.)
White Monkey
> training-wise. it's impossible to tell if Saskia is breaking
> position because she is testing you, because she's impatient,
> because you've asked for too much time too soon, or because
> she's not really sure what "down" means (in other words, it's
> a position, not an action, and should be held until given
> another command).
It's my firm opinion she thinks it's just a thing to do--lie down--not a
position to be held. Given that it may be some weeks before we find a
trainer in Haarlem or region, any tips on correcting this?
--Katrina
Sionnach
"shelly" wrote:
> no. i think--and this is obviously based only on your posts
> here, so i really don't have much to go on--that you may not
> be taking this as seriously as i would. i've said before that
> aggression toward humans is a deal breaker for me.
<snip>
> by that, i mean that if you
> *know* she's acted aggressively when Walter has approached her
The problem with your argument and position, IMO, is that giving a "back
off" snap (which is what Saskia's behaviour, as described, appears to have
been)- does NOT automatically constitute "aggression" - not towards humans,
and not towards other dogs.
When my dogs snap, growl, or otherwise say "back off" or "knock it off" at
pesty puppies or other dogs, it does not mean they are "aggressive" - it
means they are communicating. The same is true in regards to humans.
And while it is true that *some* dogs - truly aggressive and/or dominant
ones - will escalate from snapping to biting with intent to do harm, it is
also true that many, perhaps most, dogs will NOT do so.
I'm not saying that the situation with Saskia and Walter shouldn't be
closely monitored, but I don't believe, either, that any dog who says "back
off" to a human - regardless of the age of the human - under any
circumstances is automatically to be considered "aggressive" and
"dangerous".
The dogs I grew up with, and the dogs my sister's children grew up with,
all said "back off" to one child or another at one time or another, but none
of them ever did - or WOULD have done - actual harm to a child.
For that matter, the one aggressive dog I HAVE owned - Laddie, the chow
mix, who bit several adults in his 11 years of life - was perfectly safe
with babies and toddlers.
shelly
> The problem with your argument and position, IMO, is that
>giving a "back off" snap (which is what Saskia's behaviour,
>as described, appears to have been)- does NOT automatically
>constitute "aggression" - not towards humans, and not towards
>other dogs.
i do not think it's okay for a Great Dane to growl at (or snap
at) a small child. i think it's a spectacularly bad idea to
let such a dog believe that it has any right to behave in that
manner. if it happens, i think it's important to look at why
the dog is doing so, and correct the underlying problem. in
this case (as i understand it), Walter was not hurting Saskia,
and Saskia had--in my opinion--absolutely no reasonable excuse
for growling at him.
> And while it is true that *some* dogs - truly aggressive
>and/or dominant ones - will escalate from snapping to biting
>with intent to do harm, it is also true that many, perhaps
>most, dogs will NOT do so.
my experience with resource guarding is that it *does* often
escalate.
> I'm not saying that the situation with Saskia and Walter
>shouldn't be closely monitored, but I don't believe, either,
>that any dog who says "back off" to a human - regardless of
>the age of the human - under any circumstances is
>automatically to be considered "aggressive" and "dangerous".
i didn't use the word "dangerous" and i did not say that
Saskia was "aggressive." and, i'm sorry, but Saskia has--in
my opinion--no right to be telling Walter to back off.
period.
> The dogs I grew up with, and the dogs my sister's children
>grew up with, all said "back off" to one child or another at
>one time or another, but none of them ever did - or WOULD
>have done - actual harm to a child.
>
> For that matter, the one aggressive dog I HAVE owned -
>Laddie, the chow mix, who bit several adults in his 11 years
>of life - was perfectly safe with babies and toddlers.
what does that have to do with Katrina's situation?
shelly
>It's my firm opinion she thinks it's just a thing to do--lie
>down--not a position to be held. Given that it may be some
>weeks before we find a trainer in Haarlem or region, any tips
>on correcting this?
unfortunately, no, except to hold off until you can get
in-person help from a trainer (which i am not, in person or
otherwise).
TO...@dog-play.com
> This whole thing has
> me very upset and distressed, and you could cut me a little slack, please!
Sure. Just take a deep breath. Step back. You really need to find ONE
source of advice you trust. The problem is that there are a hundred ways
that can work. What they end up having is common is consistency and
structure. And you can't get that if you are wavering between methods.
Pick one. Calm down.
You are upset, and that makes you reactive. Step back. What things you
choose to do may not be nearly as critical as that what you do is
consistent and predictable. Which means you should choose your course of
action sooner rather than later.
--
Diane Blackman
There is no moral victory in proclaiming to abhor violence
while preaching with violent words.
http://dog-play.com/ http://dogplayshops.com/
Ronna
>
> It's my firm opinion she thinks it's just a thing to do--lie down--not a
> position to be held. Given that it may be some weeks before we find a
> trainer in Haarlem or region, any tips on correcting this?
> --Katrina
Have you ever considered group classes? Teaching a dog while in the
face of many distractions is a good thing. Not to mention your dog
gets socialized to people and other dogs, which is VERY important.
I think I read that one of your trainers said no to group classes? Why
is that? The only way I'd ever recommend private classes straight off
is if the dog absolutely could not function in the least around other
dogs.
White Monkey
> face of many distractions is a good thing. Not to mention your dog
> gets socialized to people and other dogs, which is VERY important.
She did very well when we were able to attend puppy and young dog classes,
but the distance and hassle getting there was too much for everyone, and
then I went into labor (I was out there with her until about 2 weeks before
the birth, though). I am very interested in getting back into it.
> I think I read that one of your trainers said no to group classes? Why
> is that?
That was way back, when she was about 8 months old. The trainer wanted her
sit-stay and down-stay and loose-lead walking sharpoened up before she would
fit in with the regular adiult dog class at that particular favcility. They
have been shgarpened up from where they were--her loose-lead walking is
downright great now, however much He Who Shall Not be Named likes to quote
posts showing we had problems with that over a year ago when she was around
5 months old. I'll be looking further into it as soon as we've moved, a week
from today.
Private training actually is not necessarily as suited to her as to other
dogs--if someone new comes here Saskia goes goofy, and spends the entire
visit trying to get up their nose without being touched, and overall
displays none of her usual around-the-house behavior whatsoever. We'd have
to have the person here like 12 times, close together, for extended stays
before they'd get a decent picture of how it goes around here. It's
different out, and the trainer we have used met us in a park.
Anyway, I'd like to add to this message some more general statements.
Shelly, thank you, I obviously wasn't thinking too clearly when I answered
the one about down-stays, thank you so much for not getting nasty about it.
Not that I'd have thought you would. It's been a HELL of a day, but at the
end of it, at least poor little teething Walter is asleep, Saskia is
exercised and snoozing, and we have finally found out that the new place
will NOT be delivered without a kitchen and with a hole instead of a bedroom
after all.
To everyone who posted such supportive messages, sorry I didn't get to
answering you all, but it means a lot to me that some people at least can
tell I am really trying here, really concerned, and really want to do the
right thing.
Now, The Plan. I still have to go over it in detail with my husband, now
that Walter's in bed, after he's had a chance to read the NILIF description
I printed out for him, but based on all my reading here and elsewhere and
the recommendations of the trainer, and personal evaluation of our own dog,
here's what we plan to do:
As soon as we move, we will start looking for a local trainer/class.
Meanwhile we will start NILIF.
We will use the "tasty treat" idea for when Walter is around.
We will get Saskia out for at least one 1/2 hour free running session in the
park every day, often two, and at least one 15+ minute on-lead walk as well.
We will institute thrice-daily 10-minute obedience sessions, during which we
will stick to down-stays at lengths we know she can do.
Further things will depend on the trainer/classes, if and when found, and
how things go.
--Katrina
White Monkey
<TO...@dog-play.com> wrote in message news:3qvns9F...@individual.net...
Thank you. Just waiting on my husband, now. I have posted the results of
this research fest upthread; we now have a plan and if I can get Danny to
like it (probable) we can and will stick to it. I'll post progress reports.
Thank you again,
Katrina
Diana
"Handsome Jack Morrison" <handsomeja...@earthlink.net> wrote in
message news:t5rkk1tbfudo0o6cn...@4ax.com...
[..]
you should stop allowing this dog to have his
> own "stuff" (there's no good reason to take any chances here, and at
> least until you're able to have a trainer/behaviorist visit with you,
> this will reduce the immediate potential for dangerous
I think that this was the very first bit of advice given after the first
incidence, at least from myself and I think it was backed up by others too.
Diana
Janet B
<k.m.c...@chello.nl>, clicked their heels and said:
>She did very well when we were able to attend puppy and young dog classes,
>but the distance and hassle getting there was too much for everyone, and
>then I went into labor (I was out there with her until about 2 weeks before
>the birth, though). I am very interested in getting back into it.
Katrina - please realize that this is not a criticism of YOU.......
Anyone reading this who thinks it's a great idea to raise a puppy and
a baby at the same time - have second thoughts! It's a helluva lot of
work, even when one feels confident and experienced raising both
species individually. There are a ton of books on the subject, all
offering different advice.
IMO, it all boils down to one thing - respect and rules. Structure is
vastly underrated for both dogs and children. A little of it goes a
very long way toward harmony and safety.
Timing, as always, is very important, in so many things in life......
White Monkey
>>but the distance and hassle getting there was too much for everyone, and
>>then I went into labor (I was out there with her until about 2 weeks
>>before
>>the birth, though). I am very interested in getting back into it.
> Katrina - please realize that this is not a criticism of YOU.......
> Anyone reading this who thinks it's a great idea to raise a puppy and
> a baby at the same time - have second thoughts! It's a helluva lot of
> work, even when one feels confident and experienced raising both
> species individually. There are a ton of books on the subject, all
> offering different advice.
> IMO, it all boils down to one thing - respect and rules. Structure is
> vastly underrated for both dogs and children. A little of it goes a
> very long way toward harmony and safety.
> Timing, as always, is very important, in so many things in life......
> Janet B
We were naive--we thought that having the dog be about 8 months old at the
time of the birth would ensure that she was young enough to adjust to the
changes but old enough to have matured a bit and had some training. I have
no real regrets because we love Saskia so much, but would I do it
differently next time? YES, in a heartbeat.
--Katrina
Ronna
> Anyone reading this who thinks it's a great idea to raise a puppy and
> a baby at the same time - have second thoughts! >
So true! A friend of mine, first time mom, has 15 month old son who is
out of control. She got a 6 week old Mini Schnauzer puppy. She's also
a first time puppy owner.
Lets just say she is having major problems (all her fault) and the poor
puppy is going to end up paying the price :(
Judy
news:1128974953.1...@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> So true! A friend of mine, first time mom, has 15 month old son who is
> out of control. She got a 6 week old Mini Schnauzer puppy. She's also
> a first time puppy owner.
Okay. A puppy sold at six weeks. (Not even legal where I live.) To a
first time puppy owner. With a baby. A first baby. I think we can rule
out any support from a responsible breeder in this scenario.
> Lets just say she is having major problems (all her fault) and the poor
> puppy is going to end up paying the price :(
It can be done. The answer is the same one that this thread keeps coming
back to for Saskia and Katrina. It's structure. And routine. For
everybody. The more balls you're trying to juggle at the same time, the
more important structure becomes. The more things the world throws at you,
the more a baby and a puppy need routine and structure.
But yeah, I agree with your prediction that the puppy will be the one on the
short end. If the 15 month old son is out of control, what hope is there to
establish any control of a puppy? And I don't even want to think of what an
uncontrolled 15 month old can do to a miniature schnauzer puppy - with long
term consequences. I don't suppose there's any chance of a voluntary
turn-over of the pup to rescue?
~~Judy
Ronna
> As soon as we move, we will start looking for a local trainer/class.
> Meanwhile we will start NILIF.
> We will use the "tasty treat" idea for when Walter is around.
> We will get Saskia out for at least one 1/2 hour free running session in the
> park every day, often two, and at least one 15+ minute on-lead walk as well.
> We will institute thrice-daily 10-minute obedience sessions, during which we
> will stick to down-stays at lengths we know she can do.
> Further things will depend on the trainer/classes, if and when found, and
> how things go.
>
Sounds like a good start :) Just remember, you have to be CONSISTANT
and you have to be patient. You have to be firm. Losing the
privledges means losing them, not just some of the time, until you get
the resource guarding under control. Distance is your friend when
working with the baby and the dog. Having Walter play at a distance
from Saskia when she is lying around, and treating her while he is
there. You can even have Walter hand her the treat :) The main goal
is to teach Saskia that when Walter is around, nothing is going to be
taken away (which is the resource guarders fear), things are going to
be given :)
I'd love to hear how it goes, you can email me privately if you don't
want to post here.
Ronna
> first time puppy owner. With a baby. A first baby. I think we can rule
> out any support from a responsible breeder in this scenario.
Most definetly. And the kicker is, this girl was a student of mine!
She just ran out and bought the puppy, now is calling me asking for
advice :(
>
> It can be done. The answer is the same one that this thread keeps coming
> back to for Saskia and Katrina. It's structure. And routine. For
> everybody. The more balls you're trying to juggle at the same time, the
> more important structure becomes. The more things the world throws at you,
> the more a baby and a puppy need routine and structure.
This is very true. However, this girl is not the brightest crayon in
the box. For example, she is complaining that the puppy is going in
it's crate. She said "I take him out first thing in the morning, but
this morning I was drying my hair and he was whining, and I figured he
could wait a few minutes while I finished my hair. He peed in the
crate!".
If I were standing in front of her, I would have taken her by the
shoulders and shaken her :)
> But yeah, I agree with your prediction that the puppy will be the one on the
> short end. If the 15 month old son is out of control, what hope is there to
> establish any control of a puppy? And I don't even want to think of what an
> uncontrolled 15 month old can do to a miniature schnauzer puppy - with long
> term consequences. I don't suppose there's any chance of a voluntary
> turn-over of the pup to rescue?
No, not yet anyway. She has plans to get ANOTHER puppy in 6 months, a
Yorkie!
My friend saw her today going into the vet clinic with the puppy and
the 15 month old. She came out of the clinic a bit later, saying the
vet told her that her child was out of control and she needed to have
someone watch him before they would look at the puppy. I guess he was
running around, banging on the computer keyboards, yelling and
screaming, and trying to overturn the fishtank. And she gets a puppy
with this kind of child??? My friend said the puppy was very fearful :(
IHateToSayIt...@inbox.com
Yeah, but you're a lying dog abusing mental case.
REMEMBER?:
From: "Diana" <diana_pete.attw...@lineone.net>
Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2001 09:25:50 -0000
Subject: Re: Obsessive behav. *longish*...help please!
Any form of obsessive behaviour is stress related so
scolding and punishments will only further the stress.
He's obviously worried about these birds - it's not
something he's encountered before, they make a strange
noise and he feel there must be some problem that if
no one else is going to do it, it's best that he sorts
it out - and not being able to is stressing him.
Jerry, no doubt, has sent you his manual. He may be
a bit off with peole but in his manual you will find
instructions for distraction and praise which, ultimately
for this problem, there is no topping.
Unfortunately he does no use winzip so it will take
a while to download - meant to talk to him about that!
---------------------
AND THEN diana WENT INSANE because she learned her own
dog Stone was DYIN from The Puppy Wizard's SYNDROME. She's
a natural born dog abuser and victim of abuse and launched
her own KILLFILE The Amazing Puppy Wizard campagne!
alison wrote:
That's a shame . I saw the post . Did you try asking
this on alt animals dog. I think that was discussed there
recently and I think on this group.
Diana's (Luscious Lugs) old alsation has degenerative
myelopathy. One of the symptoms was weakness and not
being able to use her back legs properly. My Judy has
kidney problems and sometimes her back leg muscles shake.
If you do a Google search I'm sure you'll find some old
posts about weakness and shaking.
Alison
From: "Lushious Lugs" <p...@thedog.com>
Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 08:40:32 -0000
Local: Wed, Jan 30 2002 4:40 am
Subject: Re: Are "Prong" Collars That Bad?
"JewelOfTheGnarf" <jewelofthegn...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20020129194506...@mb-mg.aol.com...
> marge, very eloquently put! I believe completely in the
> choke chain and leather lead training, but prong collars
> in my opinion should never need to be used on ANY dog.
> They are cruel, and very dangerous.
Watching Uncle Matty train a Golden Retriever not to chase
cars using a 30' (?) rope and a choke chain nearly made me
throw up. I'm amazed his head stayed on.
Prior to that I could see that they worked and was always
of the belief that it was the sound as much as anything
that did the job.
Now we have haltis which are easy and kind, we have greater
understanding and (hopefully) respect for our dogs as emotional
beings ~ there are so many kind methods, why should anyone want
to choose one that can cause physical pain or even injury to
their pet?
We have a light hearted group site on the newsgroup
alt.animals.dog on which Helle Haugenes has offered
an article on choke collars. This has been translated
from Norwegian but does tell of some of the physical
damage that can occur to dogs trained with these collars:
--
alt.animals.dog website: www.ourdogs.chilly-hippo.co.uk
Diana ~ Lugs are ears!
Lushious Lugs Jul 24 2002, 7:22 am
Newsgroups: alt.animals.dog
From: "Lushious Lugs" <d...@dogstuffagain.fslife.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 12:12:11 +0100
Subject: Re: You strange people
"Martini" <tof...@wp.pl> wrote in message
news:ahm1m4$dni$1...@news2.tpi.pl...
> Ok, so I have to stick a bit and lurk. I thought that
> Wizard is ok because I watched his programmes a lot.
> Here he uses abusive words but I can still read some
> posts from people who are greatful. My dog is 8 moths
> old so I haven't been in the subject for too long. I've
> read some books but they weren't too good. I will certainly
> read a lot more and I will visit your group. Thank you.
> Martini
[..]
The Wizard? ~ I think you are getting Uncle Matty
and 'The Puppy Wizard' confused! LOL
I personally think Uncle Matty's dog training methods
are extremely dangerous to the physical well-being of
a dog and that choke chains have no better use than as
items to remind us of the barbaric means by which we
once 'trained' our dogs...
Also, because they really do hurt the dog and frighten
it, you are destroying the great relationship that you
should be working to vbuild with your dog...
I know there are a lot of people who disagree with me,
but then there are many who share my point of view...
but ultimately why use a method to teach your dog that
will hurt it when there are many other ways of getting
the same instruction to your dog without hurting it.
The Puppy Wizard on the other hand is otherwise known
as Jerry Howe and alleges that he is a dog trainer but
apart from on these newsgroups where he rants abusive
posts, no one has ever heard of him. For all his faults,
his approach as written in 'his manual' is very anti the
use of choke chains.
Hope that clarifies!
Diana
--
See my dog Stone ~ July 5th on the birthday calendar.
The aad group web site: http://www.ourdogs.chilly-hippo.co.uk
(In the UK 'lugs' or 'lug 'oles' is slang for ears ~ and no
dog has a finer set than my Stone!)
From: "Diana" <d...@dogstuffagain.fslife.co.uk>
Date: Sun, 22 Jun 2003 11:27:02 +0100
Subject: Re: WOW.....
"Stu" <f...@fred.com> wrote in message
news:bd3utm$ubn$1...@news7.svr.pol.co.uk...
[..]
Hi Stuart,
Just be a little careful, you can also pick up a lot
of garbage on the WWW! ~ If you venture in to any of
the other dog groups, you'll find a character called
Jerry Howe aka the Puppy wizard who might at first
seem to be offering a lot of very good advice.
As you read on though, you learn that many of his
ideas in his 'free manual' have been copied / stolen
from other peoples works ands some of his ideas are
downright dangerous.
Poor chap is surely insane.
Diana
--
My precious Stone: Once my rock, now my diamond in the sky.
The aad group web site: http://www.ourdogs.chilly-hippo.co.uk
Learn more about your pets: http://www.infopet.co.uk
****************************
THAT'S The Puppy Wizard's SYNDROME, People!
It's what's MURDERIN david's dog and HE AIN'T
gonna be HAPPY to do otherWIZE.
The Amazing Puppy Wizard <{); ~ ) >
("`-''-/").___..--''"`-._
`6_ 6 ) `-. ( ).`-.__.`)
(_Y_.)' ._ ) `._ `. ``-..-'
_..`--'_..-_/ /--'_.' ,'
(((' (((-((('' ((((
|\ _.-'~~""'~`'~)
/, ~-,__,,,.'~ ,-;;--''
|,4) ./ ' ; ;/'
'-~~;'@ ( ; ;
_.--'' _.-_..' .;.'
(,_..----''' (,..--''
Meow
/),,/)
( ' ; ')
(,,)-(,,)
/),,/)
(' ; ') kiss me
(,,)-(,,)
/),,/)
( ; ' ) kiss me here
(,,)-(,,)
/),,/)
( ; ) kiss me here
(,,)-(,,)
/)
( * ) and KISS ME HERE!
(,,)-(,,)
The Amazing Pussy Wizard <{@); ~ } >
<{#}: ~ } >8< { ~ :{@}>
<{#}: ~ } > < { ~ :{@}>
<{#}: ~ } > < { ~ :{@}>
<{#}: ~ } > < { ~ :{@}>
<{#}: ~ } > http://www.tinyurl.com/7bl5u < { ~ :{@}>
<{#}: ~ } > < { ~ :{@}>
<{#}: ~ } > < { ~ :{@}>
<{#}: ~ } > < { ~ :{@}>
<{#}: ~ } >8< { ~ :{@}>
http://www.irishdogs.ie/Information/Wits_End_Dog_Training.pdf
Please DON'T BE The Amazing Pussy Wizard's PREY.
IT AIN'T PRETTY.
<{@); ~ } >
White Monkey
I forgot to mention, I will also be using the "Walter throws the ball" idea
and similar.
Now, believe it or not, I can be firm. I may look like a softie because of
the way we decided to bring this dog up, because it has been fine with other
dogs, but we haven't had a dog with these issues before, and believe me, I
can put my foot down and draw clear lines for her, since that seems to be
what she needs. It'll be difficult working her feeding into NILIF, because
she free-feeds because she eats very little and mostly at 3 a.m., but we'll
work something out that makes it clear We Own The Food.
Especially at the new place I can certainly keep Walter from going to her if
she's across the room (where we will strategically put the new dog bed and
her crate), but should I make a big effort to keep HER away from HIM? She
loves to come up to where he's playing and lie down with her nose near him,
and watch him. Her head is down, she's relaxed, and if he touches her she
solicits petting or licks him, or if she's already asleep she stretches all
her toes out.
I can also be consistent. It has taken several months of very careful and
consistent work to improve Walter's sleep--he was having nightmares, and
until a few weeks ago we were up with him (well, I was) every hour or hour
and a half for up to two hours. But I stuck with it and developed a routine,
with the help of a pedagogue and working long-distance with a somnoliogist
and doing online research and reading and working with books like the "No
Cry Sleep Solution", which now has him sleeping four or five hours at a
time. But it took rigid consistency and absolute patience. Now he's being a
whiney-butt because he's teething AND he's learned how to have a temper
tantrum, but I am being firm and consistent and already he gives up on fits
after a few minutes and returns to playing quietly by himself in the playpen
when Mama Has Something Important To Do.
Having Walter hand Saskia the treat is a good option. She has a VERY soft
touch when taking treats; it would be safe.
Thanks,
Katrina
White Monkey
>>> own "stuff" (there's no good reason to take any chances here, and at
>>> least until you're able to have a trainer/behaviorist visit with you,
>>> this will reduce the immediate potential for dangerous
>>I think that this was the very first bit of advice given after the first
>>incidence, at least from myself and I think it was backed up by others
>>too.
> Yup.
> Handsome Jack Morrison
You folks are more than welcome to always take the first piece of advice
someone posts on Usenet, even if it goes against what your trainer said. I
prefer to compare opinions and advice and collect a bit more information
first, and, as now, often do decide that I will follow that first post's
suggestion. To each his own.
--Katrina
Paula
<k.m.c...@chello.nl> wrote:
>
>> if i were in your position, my dog wouldn't *have* any
>> "stuff." if she were resource guarding space and toys, the
>> *first* thing i would have done is taken those things away.
>> i would return a limited number of toys to her after she'd
>> earned them. i would take up the toys after she was finished
>> with them, and would be very careful not to leave any toys
>> lying around, where they could spark another confrontation. i
>> would absolutely not allow her to have toys in the baby's
>> presence.
>
>It was the advice of the rtainer and a few people on the Danes groups not to
>take this approach, but she will be limited to chewing on stuff in her crate
>at the new place. I haven't ruled out this approach, either.
>
>>>Saskia lies down or holds still and wags when he crawls
>>>toward her. The only two instances of any sign of displeasure
>>>with him were while she was actively chewing on sometheing he
>>>reached for, and each time there were extenuating
>>>circumstances.
>>
>> if she'd bitten Walter, would you feel that the circumstances
>> were "extenuating" enough?
>
>Extenuating enough for *what*? I don't think they're "extenuating enough" to
>excuse anything, if that's what you're implying. Did you think I was making
>some sort of excuse for her??? I was using that to explain among other
>things why one particular book would be difficult to apply to this situation
>because the circumstances involved factors that were very individual and
>won't be repeated, so it is at this moment impossible to predict if it will
>happen again, as I don't know of any triggers besides the ones apparently
>extant at those times. Also to explain that she doesn't seem uncomfortable
>with him crawling toward her, as she has never reacted badly to that and the
>two times she has reacted like that he was NOT crawling, so we don't think
>she has a problem with the crawling. It has nothing to do with any kind of
>excuse for her. Just answering the subject that was at hand.
>
>If she bit him we'd have to have her put down.
Okay, this is exactly the problem I have with the whole situation.
Like Ronna and Shelly, I would not ever ever allow the dog and the
baby to be in a position where she could in any way bite him. Within
arm's reach is not good enough. You don't have to make a big deal of
keeping them apart such that it looks like an issue to Saskia, you
don't even have to keep them completely apart, but you cannot have
them together in any circumstance that is not completely under your
control. When my kids were Walter's size, they did not crawl around
the dogs even when the dogs had not had any incidents precisely
because if there is any misunderstanding that results in a bite, the
child could be maimed or worse and the dog may well end up dead. The
stakes are too high. You can't wait until the move to worry about it.
Better to keep them completely separated for a week and then work with
a trainer than to have something horrible happen in that week and have
to put the dog down and the child in the hospital. The fact that you
can't predict the behavior because the circumstances have had no
pattern you can discern makes it worse, not better. You do not know
what will set her off or hit her wrong. Until you do, it is even more
important not to ever let them be together without you being in
between them, especially not with any toys or chewies in the vicinity.
You don't have to make a production of removing all toys when Walter
starts cruising. Just don't have the toys around. Better at this
point to have Saskia asking you for toys instead of thinking they are
hers to do with as she pleases anyway. Please don't take any chances.
Make sure Walter is in your arms or you are between him and Saskia.
Arm's length leaves way too much to chance at this point.
--
Paula
"Anyway, other people are weird, but sometimes they have candy, so it's best to try to get along with them." Joe Bay
Paula
<k.m.c...@chello.nl> wrote:
>As to
>taking her stuff away, OK, good advice, not what her trainer said, but good
>advice. So how do we prevent her being bored? A lot of the time she just
>settles down with her Nylabone for a good chew and I want to know how to
>keep her mentally satisfied at these times.
Make her do something for you in order to get the nylabone. Then let
her sit and chew it. BUT, make sure this is happening when Walter is
not cruising around her.
White Monkey
"Paula" <mmmtob...@earthlink.ent> wrote in message
news:qhpmk15v6m8htdvpv...@4ax.com...
> On Mon, 10 Oct 2005 16:39:35 +0200, "White Monkey"
> <k.m.c...@chello.nl> wrote:
>
>>As to
>>taking her stuff away, OK, good advice, not what her trainer said, but
>>good
>>advice. So how do we prevent her being bored? A lot of the time she just
>>settles down with her Nylabone for a good chew and I want to know how to
>>keep her mentally satisfied at these times.
>
> Make her do something for you in order to get the nylabone. Then let
> her sit and chew it. BUT, make sure this is happening when Walter is
> not cruising around her.
Works for me. It also fits well with my idea that when she does chew in
future she'll have to so it in her crate or on her bed (the largest crate we
could find is a little too small now for her to stretch out comfortably;
good thing she's trustworthy alone in the house as long as we leave a "decoy
pile" consisting of a few sheets of newspaper, and that only gets hit about
a third of the time).
--Katrina
Paula
<k.m.c...@chello.nl> wrote:
>
>We were naive--we thought that having the dog be about 8 months old at the
>time of the birth would ensure that she was young enough to adjust to the
>changes but old enough to have matured a bit and had some training. I have
>no real regrets because we love Saskia so much, but would I do it
>differently next time? YES, in a heartbeat.
Heh, naive is the name of the game when it comes to first child plans
and first dog plans. First child and first dog together is bound to
be a surprise a minute! I was at my niece's bridal shower Saturday
and the girls took their little dogs along to show them off (my niece
is definitely a dog person). One of the guests had a barely walking
little boy. She was saying how much she wanted to get a dog and was
even more certain it was a good idea when she saw her son playing with
my daughter's dogs. We had a long talk about adult dogs vs. puppies.
She also thought it would be better for them to grow up together for
bonding. I think I managed to talk her into an adult dog with a track
record for getting along with small children instead. She wrote down
petfinder.com for future reference, at least. The fact that it would
have been easier to do it otherwise doesn't negate the fact that it is
still possible to do it this way now that you are there and there is
no turning back. What I see as the bigger problem is being able to
start over in your thinking about how a young dog and a young child
will grow together. Think of when Saskia is old enough to be more
stable around Walter's changing mobility rather than of his being
young enough to adjust. That is closer to the reality. They need to
be closely supervised while they are both young and rambunctious and
not all that aware of other beings on the planet when it comes to what
they want. They're both kids, and will be for some time yet. Just be
careful that they can't do anything to hurt each other in the
meantime. The best of toddlers can pull a tail or land on a dog. The
best of puppies can hurt a child without even really trying to be
rough. The way they warn and correct animals with thicker skin and
fur just doesn't mesh with humans, especially small ones.
Paula
wrote:
> I'm not saying that the situation with Saskia and Walter shouldn't be
>closely monitored, but I don't believe, either, that any dog who says "back
>off" to a human - regardless of the age of the human - under any
>circumstances is automatically to be considered "aggressive" and
>"dangerous".
Although I wouldn't automatically consider such a dog to be
aggressive, I absolutely consider any dog who gives a back off to a
baby to be dangerous. The dog doesn't have to understand that what
passes for communication among dogs can cause great harm to a baby for
the baby to be hurt. I don't allow dogs around here to give any
physical warnings of any kind to any humans, but especially not to
children. Better safe than sorry if the dogs are going to live day in
and day out with kids. I would be very concerned about Saskia whether
or not I believed she was ever going to escalate to serious bite to
harm mode. I mean, just look at what dogs do to each other to have
fun and it's obvious there have to be clear lines as to what
communication and play and complaint and everything else flies with
humans as opposed to dogs. Wrestling doesn't even get fun for dogs
until past the point where it would cause grievous bodily harm to an
infant or toddler. Dogs can't be expected to figure this out, but
their humans need to be constantly aware of the differences and
teaching the dogs how to respect them.
Paula
<k.m.c...@chello.nl> wrote:
>> Something that nobody has mentioned here, btw: are you familiar with the
>> concept of "puppy license"? It has struck me all along that part of what
>> may be going on here is that Walter's "puppy license" with Saskia has
>> started to expire.
>
>
>This is very much something that I think plays a significant factor, as does
>Saskia's just-coming-into-her-own tender age of 1 1/2. I remain confident
>that if we can manage this and get through it without further incident it
>will become a phase instead of a lifelong worry. At least I hope so.
This is one of the things I hate about talking about "puppy license."
I see it as a big problem when dogs see kids as puppies. The fact
that dogs naturally tend to see them that way just means that you have
a little time to teach them that the baby is a human and not a puppy.
Puppies can be corrected even if the dog decides for a period of time
not to. Humans cannot be corrected no matter what the dog thinks of
the situation. Puppies and other dogs can be wrestled with, snapped
at, even nipped and it is all mild. Humans cannot.
Paula
<k.m.c...@chello.nl> wrote:
>
>"MauiJNP" <jmh...@ptd.net> wrote in message
>news:8Y-cnZoiHNc...@ptd.net...
>> >
>>> Meanwhile, the trainer told me to stop letting her on furniture
>>
>>
>> if you really want to listen to the trainer but hate to ban her from the
>> furniture, maybe you could just teach her to always get permission from
>> you before getting up?
>
>
>
>Oh, we don't mind not letting her up, we just question whether doing so in
>the first place caused this situation. But we're going to allow her to get
>onto the bed briefly and after sitting down and waiting for one of us to say
>OK, when she just wants to say hi before going to bed on HER bed. I can't
>see that doing a heck of a lot of harm, especially as Walter will ALSO be
>getting on the bed but not sleeping there.
Considering that you already have a problem and the situation is going
to be new and possibly stressful for a dog who doesn't deal all that
well with stress, I think it would be better to start off with a
clearer line of not letting her on the bed in the new place at all.
Have her lie on her bed on the floor and see Walter up on the bed with
you. Let her have her favorite nylabone or toy on her bed while
Walter is up there with you. It is easier to make small steps forward
than it is to take things back. I also think it is very important for
Saskia to see Walter getting BETTER treatment and MORE privileges than
she does instead of equal. You don't want her seeing him as an
pseudo-equal that she can jockey for position with. You want it
absolutely clear that he is above her in the pecking order and there
is no room for her to say anything at all about it. She must just
accept it and move on. The more doubt there is in her mind, the more
you are setting up testing the boundaries.
White Monkey
> to be new and possibly stressful for a dog who doesn't deal all that
> well with stress, I think it would be better to start off with a
> clearer line of not letting her on the bed in the new place at all.
> Have her lie on her bed on the floor and see Walter up on the bed with
> you. Let her have her favorite nylabone or toy on her bed while
> Walter is up there with you. It is easier to make small steps forward
> than it is to take things back. I also think it is very important for
> Saskia to see Walter getting BETTER treatment and MORE privileges than
> she does instead of equal. You don't want her seeing him as an
> pseudo-equal that she can jockey for position with. You want it
> absolutely clear that he is above her in the pecking order and there
> is no room for her to say anything at all about it. She must just
> accept it and move on. The more doubt there is in her mind, the more
> you are setting up testing the boundaries.
I hadn't posted it, but we did make this decision as part of adopting NILIF.
I am 98% certain my husband is on board; we didn't have a chance to talk it
out in depth last night, but I think he can also see that it can do no harm
and will result in more argument about it than he would like if he isn't on
board. We usually have very harmonious relations, but this one I'm serious
enough about to have a rocky bit over of necessary.
Off to our last baby playgroup ay the bookstore! I'll probably find time to
post again later.
--Katrina
White Monkey
>
> IMO, you're just wishy-washy.
>
> Your dog will likely never know where he stands, or how to behave,
> etc., because you're always shopping around for "bits" of training
> information and don't have a clue as to how all those "bits" go
> together, or even if they actually work against each another.
>
> Until you can find a trainer that you trust, that you're comfortable
> with, that can actually visit you and OBSERVE what's going on with
> your dog, etc., your default position should be to carefully MANAGE
> your situation. That is, to AVOID any possibility of shit happening.
So is it that you didn't read or didn't agree with the post about what the
plan is? NILIF, training, scheduled regular outings, you know, the stuff I
posted about what we're starting now while we look for a trainer. What the
hell is your problem with it?!
Ah, never mind, you just want to snipe at me because you have a pre-formed
opinion of what I'll do and can't bother reading what I said I'll do with an
eye toward believing it.
--Katrina
White Monkey
>>> etc., because you're always shopping around for "bits" of training
>>> information and don't have a clue as to how all those "bits" go
>>> together, or even if they actually work against each another.
>>>
>>> Until you can find a trainer that you trust, that you're comfortable
>>> with, that can actually visit you and OBSERVE what's going on with
>>> your dog, etc., your default position should be to carefully MANAGE
>>> your situation. That is, to AVOID any possibility of shit happening.
>
>>So is it that you didn't read or didn't agree with the post about what
>>the
>>plan is? NILIF, training, scheduled regular outings, you know, the stuff I
>>posted about what we're starting now while we look for a trainer. What the
>>hell is your problem with it?!
>
> because tomorrow "it" will probably be something else (after you've
> gathered up another "bit" of information).
> Handsome Jack Morrison
The plan as formulated and posted is the plan. It is what we are doing. Fuck
you too. I'm done trying to talk to you.
--Katrina
Robin Nuttall
> Along that same line (i.e., the need for structure, routine), here's
> something I stumbled across this morning:
>
> http://slate.msn.com/id/2127419/?GT1=7125
>
I don't always agree with Katz, but this is an emminently sensible
article. Thanks for sharing Jack.
Rocky
rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
> It's structure. And routine. For
> everybody. The more balls you're trying to juggle at the
> same time, the more important structure becomes. The more
> things the world throws at you, the more a baby and a puppy
> need routine and structure.
I've noticed this in my house for some time. Friday has become
somewhat needy since I started a dog daycare in my home; even
though I'm spending way more time with him, it's not consistent,
like when I had a real job. Friday, like most dogs, prefers the
structure you mention.
Katrina:
To that end, and to take this back to babies and dogs, Saskia
could benefit with extended time-outs, spending a bunch of time
in her crate while she becomes used to the relatively new flow
of the home. Crate time is generally an enjoyable and relaxing
thing for a dog who really wants seclusion from a nippy puppy or
toy-interfering toddler, especially if that crate is in your
living area.
--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
White Monkey
> To that end, and to take this back to babies and dogs, Saskia
> could benefit with extended time-outs, spending a bunch of time
> in her crate while she becomes used to the relatively new flow
> of the home. Crate time is generally an enjoyable and relaxing
> thing for a dog who really wants seclusion from a nippy puppy or
> toy-interfering toddler, especially if that crate is in your
> living area.
>
> --
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
This was suggested by the trainer and is something we intend to work with.
Do you have any tips on making it enjoyable? We'll be trying it gradually
(as she relaxes with it) as soon as we've moved, where there will be room
for the crate again, but before we moved here, she reacted to being in the
crate by crying and pawing at it for a while and then sitting gloomily in
there and barking or whining if we left the room or just after a while
again, if we were home, and if we went out we had it from the neighbors that
she would bark and bang for two or three hours, if that's how long we were
gone. Toys are ignored, treats are ignored, and a filled Kong--even with
peanut butter--is ignored if we leave, but quickly consumed if we're home,
at which point the whining and banging starts again. Wait, brain-flash here,
I'm talking about with the door shut... with it open she would go in and lie
down voluntarily often enough, or if told. We'll start with that, and with a
dog bed next to the crate because the largest crate we could get is a little
small for her to really stretch out. We intend to put the crate and bed in
such orientation to the furniture that it's in a sort of "nook" from which
she can see and hear us but which is somewhat sheltered. Anyway, she's 8
months older now, so I guess I should drop any preconceptions and just see
how it goes, eh?
--Katrina
Alison
If you have time, come along to the Taking The Lead Forum . The
subject of NILIF and rank reduction cómes up alot. You can discuss
your concerns and the trainer/behaviourist peeps there agree with a
lot of the points you have made and will explain the drawbacks that
can happen if you follow these programmes.
John Fisher changed his mind about dominance and rank in dogs after
he wrote Think Dog so bear that in mind if you get the book.
The URL to TTL is http://www.takingthelead.co.uk/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl
You have to subscribe before you can read the posts .
Alison;)
"White Monkey" <k.m.c...@chello.nl> wrote in message
news:43493f4f$0$11066$e4fe...@news.xs4all.nl...
> Thanks, all! The thing we "don't buy" is that allowing dogs on
furniture
> always automatically trains them to be confused about dominance
issues and
> therefore is without question the root cause of what has happened
here and
> all that needs to be addressed to fix it. We do see how denying the
> furniture right reasserts OUR dominance, and we'll be doing it. We
also see
> now how it could have contributed to any feelings of potential
outranking
> she may have about the baby, we just rather doubt it's the
end-all-be-all
> total-root-cause-horrifying-thing she made it out to be.
>
> As to a trainer who can see Saskia in person, yes, I agree, and once
we're
> moved to Haarlem we'll be looking for one there. Meanwhile, though,
after
> talking with her again about this issue, we ARE somewhat
dissatisfied with
> the trainer we have used on occasion, because she "doesn't have
time" to see
> the problem through with us in person or even on the phone (and I
mean for
> pay, not charity work) and "doesn't want to hear about it again"
(unless it
> gets worse) for a month while we try the only thing she's really
suggested
> (aside from reading "Think Dog", which we will order), which is keep
the dog
> off the furniture. She sounded brusque and a) didn't feel a need to
meet
> with us and the dog about it, which we thought a bit odd, and b)
never once
> asked me what I did about it when the dog growled or snapped toward
the
> baby, which we also thought a bit odd. She just doesn't seem to want
to get
> involved. We'd rather someone who did.
>
> So we will try to consult with this recommended woman long-distance
while
> researching through the local Danes society who the people with
similar
> problems have liked (in our new area) for this sort thing.
>
> Thanks again folks,
> Katrina
>
>
>
White Monkey
I will certainly take a look. It does look like NILIF is harmless in our
case, and seems to apply well to our situation--except that my husband
really ahs a big problem with taking her toys away, but he's agreed to do
it IF she can have them (earn them) at night and when we go out, and IF we
take the time to have her earn them frequently during the day so she can
play with them. He thinks taking them away is cruel and will cause more
problems than it will solve, but although I may not have got him to see
sense I did get him to agree to it, because he does see that we need to act
as one in this. But it has NOT been a nice day. Sigh!
> John Fisher changed his mind about dominance and rank in dogs after
> he wrote Think Dog so bear that in mind if you get the book.
Interesting. The trainer wants me to read it specifically for these points;
she says "it's all there in black and white" about dominance and rank.
Thank you,
Katrina
Alison
>
> "Sionnach" <rhyf...@msn.com> wrote in message
> >
>>
> We try to be flexible, too--just now Walter decided to go along
between the
> coffee table and the couch, walking sideways, and it's narrow there
and
> Saskers was standing there and wanted to get out of his way. She
couldn't go
> backward or forward because she knows not to when the baby is
crawling or
> cruising alongside or under her. In a desperate move, she got onto
the
> Forbidden Sofa, by going straight sideways, and watched him go by.
Then she
> looked at me. I chose not to reprimand for getting on the sofa, but
I did
> insist quietly that she immediately get off, and when she hesitated
(Danes
> can be stubborn) I was firm. She then took *three* feet off the sofa
(Danes
> can be stubborn), but we have taught her the words "all the way",
and she
> knows darn well she'd better do it if we say that, whether it's
complete a
> sit from a goofy crouch or get the rest of the way off the sofa.>>>
It may well be that at this point Sakia felt anxious after the
encounter with Walter
and at being on a forbidden place and wasn't sure what to do or what
would happen if she got off the sofa . Some dogs fiddle about or
freeze and as you said earlier she yawns a lot, I would give her the
benefit of the doubt and put this down to anxiety and uncertainty
rather than stubborness.
> We expect a lot of her but we can always see that she tries very
hard to do
> what we want unless she's having a stubborn moment, then she'll push
it so
> far and cave, every time.
Aw bless her, I've not read all your posts so don't know the full
story or the extent of your problems but if she is trying this hard to
please, bear in mind that "stubborness" can be uncertainty or anxiety.
Alison
>
Alison
"Ronna" <dogst...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1128957353....@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>
> .
>
> Why? It's not cruel or anything, and it's something that a good
> behaviorist would recommend, among other things.>>
Behaviourists and trainers in the UK are finding that this sudden
withdrawal of privileges can lead to the dog becoming depressed.
It can lead to the owners thinking that NILIF has worked for their dog
when it is in fact subdued and any problems the dog has are suppressed
and
not solved.
Alison
White Monkey
> I did
>> insist quietly that she immediately get off, and when she hesitated
> (Danes
>> can be stubborn) I was firm. She then took *three* feet off the sofa
> (Danes
>> can be stubborn), but we have taught her the words "all the way",
> and she
>> knows darn well she'd better do it if we say that, whether it's
> complete a
>> sit from a goofy crouch or get the rest of the way off the sofa.>>>
>
> It may well be that at this point Sakia felt anxious after the
> encounter with Walter
> and at being on a forbidden place and wasn't sure what to do or what
> would happen if she got off the sofa . Some dogs fiddle about or
> freeze and as you said earlier she yawns a lot, I would give her the
> benefit of the doubt and put this down to anxiety and uncertainty
> rather than stubborness.
That is a good point. Interesting. She IS an anxious girl, so I expect some
good results from the new program of NILIF and scheduled exercise and
training. I will bear this in mind when she seems to be being a butt-head.
The only time I'm certain, now that you mention this, that it is just
stubbornness is a refusal to come in after short potty-walks, but a) I've
about got that licked, and b) it doesn't happen when she gets enough longer
fun outings, whicjh will be a brezze at the new place except during
driving-wind ice-storms and the like.
>> We expect a lot of her but we can always see that she tries very
> hard to do
>> what we want unless she's having a stubborn moment, then she'll push
> it so
>> far and cave, every time.
>
> Aw bless her, I've not read all your posts so don't know the full
> story or the extent of your problems but if she is trying this hard to
> please, bear in mind that "stubborness" can be uncertainty or anxiety.
> Alison
The problem at hand is that on two widely separated occasions she told the
baby off. In both cases she was on the sofa, which no longer exists, and was
chewing on a thing of hers, which as of tomorrow morning when we really
formally begin NILIF also will not exist in a context, location, or time
frame that will allow the baby to come into contact with this activity. We
are of the firm *opinion* that this is a misunderstanding on her part and
that these things will work if we are consistent and firm, rather than a
previously unseen aggressive streak, because in all other ways and at all
other times she dotes on the baby, following him around to lie close to him
and watching him play, being happy to see him when we've been out or he's
been napping, etc. But although my husband is much more sanguine than I feel
is safe about this I am not, and we are taking steps to avoid any recurrence
at all. If she does anything toward the baby in any new context, as long as
she doesn't actually bite him we will strongly consider rehoming her (twice
more and there's no "consider" about it), even though it would break our
hearts. Biting would require The Worst, and we don't want to think about
it--but of course DO think about it so as to be able to prevent it.
Forgive my rambling, it's been a VERY long few days, and although many
(most) here have been understanding and VERY helpful, there are elements who
are bent on making me feel miserable, and due to my state of worry and sleep
loss have succeeded even though I know I shouldn't let such things get to
me. The same elements have also provided some very good advice, but reacted
to my saying I am now following it with sneers, so, well, tellwiddem.
--Katrina
Alison
"White Monkey" <k.m.c...@chello.nl> wrote in message
news:434a97b0$0$11075$e4fe...@news.xs4all.nl...
> >>
> It's my firm opinion she thinks it's just a thing to do--lie
down--not a
> position to be held. Given that it may be some weeks before we find
a
> trainer in Haarlem or region, any tips on correcting this?
> --Katrina >>
You can teach a dog to "settle" With Dibby I would wait until he was
settling in his bed and then say settle or any time he went to lay
down of his own free will so he made the association. You could
emphasize it with a clicker.
Alison